Reply With QuoteTheft by deception? Which would be a criminal rather than a civil matter?
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/ob...-deception.htm
My dear fellow forumers, I find myself in a bit of a predicament and would like some advice.....
I was chatting to one of my friends a few months ago as he is into watches. I mentioned I was selling a couple if he was interested. One of them was my IWC 3717. He wasn't but he thought one of his clients might be. Bearing in mind I've known the guy 15 or so years, I agreed to let him have the watch to show his client.
A couple of months went passed and I emailed him to see how he was getting on. I was told his client's son had flown out to geneva to show the watch to his dad. Not best pleased by this point as I had been assured it would stay in my friend's possession. Anyway, was reassured that there was nothing to worry about, his client was worth millions etc..etc.. Anyway, this has now gone on for months, the excuses get wilder and wilder, (they were busy with their interests in Kiev, Client had routine operation and caught MRSA, clients son's child had accident involving loosing her toes, and on it went).
Basically, a good old fashioned mugging off.
I emailed him a few days ago and told him if I didn't have the money or the watch within 7 days, I would be contacting the police. He emailed back to say he was going to talk to his solicitor to see if he could sort something with his client.
At this point, I am 99% certain that there was never a client, he has probably sold the watch as I have since found out he isn't having the best time financially. Stupid when you consider I still have the box and papers.
I've not seen him since he took the watch, (I used to see him at work every month or so).
I will contact the police as I told him but I've got the horrible feeling I'm going to be fed the old 'It's a civil matter' line.
If that's the case, I suppose my options are to either take him to court, (a waste of time and money more than likely), swallow the loss, (not going to happen), or go around and fill the fat b****** in, (only joking of course ;) ). I'm also considering talking to his wife. She may be unaware of the financial mess and could pay up out of embarrassment.
Advice wise, I'm open to suggestions and would like to here from anybody who knows where I would stand legally. I have all the emails exchanged between parties which I'm happy to pass on to anyone in the know.
Thanks in advance
Dave
Last edited by Dave O'Sullivan; 21st June 2014 at 17:38. Reason: To remove swearing :(
Theft by deception? Which would be a criminal rather than a civil matter?
http://www.inbrief.co.uk/offences/ob...-deception.htm
Oh dear i sympathise with your predicament. first thing i would do is go and seek legal advice.
You should get a half an hour consultation with a decent solicitor for free, I am sure that if it went to the small claims court then you would win, and your so called pal will be responsible for costs.
Unless we have any decent Solicitors on here, they may be able to give you a bit of guidance.
Good luck, and hope all goes well for you.
Rob.
This is an easy situation to get into, if you are kind, honest and open person with integrity sometimes it's easy to judge other people the same way, particularly if you think like attracts like. We've probably all done something similar whether it be loan books, CD or something else, I loaned someone a very expensive HiFi that somehow disappeared, the disappointment and let down is a horrible feeling.
While I do sympathise I cannot offer any real advice apart from contact the police, CAB and/or your solicitors, as you willingly handed the watch over I'm not sure how that is viewed from a legal perspective.
Instead of emailing your friend I'd also suggest calling him, maybe meeting face to face although it sounds like he might be avoiding you.
Good luck.
Last edited by christech81; 23rd June 2014 at 08:55. Reason: Quoted text removed due to edits in OP's first post
However you gave the watch away, unless as a gift, once you ask for it to be returned and it isn't, it becomes theft. I was part of a jury that was given this guidance by the judge.
Oh, first thing to do is send a recorded delivery letter asking for it's return and give a deadline. Then say what action you will take if it's not returned.
Last edited by SlimJim16v; 21st June 2014 at 17:48.
the police should be interested as it's theft, if the person has sold it or has no intention of returning it.
I would email him and tell him your plan of action, tell him you do not want to hear about this "3rd" party, as far as you are concerned he has the watch, also mention if this 3rd party does not exist it could be seen as fraud, then if it's not returned in 7 days you will them involve his wife, then the police for the theft of the watch and then the courts.
(Maybe his work too if the transaction took place at work, not sure on that one tho)
Last edited by jegger; 21st June 2014 at 17:48.
Really sorry to hear about this, especially as you trusted him.
Criminally, this will be slightly involved and will come down to the finer points of the conversation between yourselves with regards to where you go.
I note you have mentioned theft. The other offence is fraud by false representation.
For theft one has to act dishonestly to take possession of something, with the intent to permanently deprive. In your context this mesns that he had to be thinking and acting in a dishonest way at the time he took the physical possession of the watch from you.
Fraud has similarities with acting to cause loss to another or gain for oneself by dishonestly representing circumstances. It is similar to theft and the two often intertwine.
in your case it will really down to what the conversation was between you, who instigated it, when the mysterious client was mentioned and the context.
If, for example, there never was a client and it was a sham to have you hand over the watch then he has committed fraud by lying about the circumstances to gain custody of the watch.
If he had the watch and dishonestly sold it whilst purporting to be the owner then he has commited fraud by making a gain for himself.
However if he took the watch to try to sell and then got ripped off himself then he hasn't.
This is one of the topics that causes a lot of headcahes and is in the grey area of law, which sometimes end civilly, sometimes ends criminally dependent on the very specific individual factors.
My advice is to wait the seven days. He is already aware of what you are going to do so surprise is gone. Once expired go and speak to the local police. Expect what could be an uphill battle as they get overwhelmed with claims when sales or deals go bad and can occasionally be keen to settle things civilly. It may be that the finer points of yours do lend to a civil resolution, but without going though all the detail exhaustively we wont know, and thats a bit beyond the confines of this forum. If you try and fail or feel that its getting out of hand or lost in translation then send me a pm with your number and ill have a chat with you over the phone.
good luck
steve
Yes, but it would be theft by the "client", from what i've read so far, the op knew what his friend was going to do ( show watch to millionare client ) & allowed his friend to do so. If the "friend" is even a half decent con man he will already have his story along with bogus "client" name & address.Originally Posted by SlimJim16v
If this "friend" has a registered business then you can persue this through the courts as the "friend" used poor profesional judgement, but good luck with that. I've won two small claims judgements ( one in Scotland & one in England/Wales ) never recieved one penny, ignore the crap you see on TV, balifs are next to useless.
I would think that because you still have the box and papers that's a pretty good indication that you didn't give the watch away as a gift. That's going to make any excuses your friend uses a little harder to believe.
Thanks for all the pointers so far, particularly the offer of phone conversations to help. I'll refer the matter to the police as said and go from there. Please keep the pointers coming though, I've learned a lot so far!
Friends and business don't mix.
1. Write to him requiring return of watch or payment of £x within 7 days. Send this recorded delivery.
2. Issue small claims court proceedings when time up.
3. Get judgment (make sure you've got all the requisite evidence)
4. Issue bankruptcy petition, serve on his wife
5. Watch money come in if any is available
6. Only involve police at later stage. It won't recover cash but might put pressure on. Go in too early that way and you won't get anything out of it.
This. Lost count of the number of times I've lost out in a similar (albeit much smaller thankfully) way.
I hope you're able to recover your watch, if not the friendship.
That's a pretty low thing for a so called friend to do regardless of his financial situation :( hope you get some satisfactory outcome at the end of this.
Seems pretty good advice.
Had a similar thing happen to me once upon a time from a 'mate'.
Hope it ends well Dave.
Agree with this also.
I really hope you can recover your loss (watch-wise, not friend-wise...he can go and eat a s**t)
Send a recorded delivery letter by all means although it isn't necessary. An email is now considered a legal and recorded document. The fact he has responded means he can't claim to have not received it.
Good luck with this and I hope you get your watch back or it's equivalent value.
Dave, what a horrible thing to do to a mate. I am a true believer in Karma. I'll wager you have the last laugh!
Hope all ends well.
Jon
That is recipe how to easily lose friend, I am sorry for you Dave.
The point of a recorded delivery is a) the formality of it makes it look like you mean business b) you can't claim you never saw it cos it was in spam and most importantly c) chances are higher his missus will see and ask what's going on which may lead to an earlier resolution of the situation.
My first port of call would be to hoof him in the knackers
Had this email;am I being set up for a mug (again)
Basically met with my brief. He has asked you to invoice me on the following details and email it to me. I will then, via him, approach the client. If I don’t get a very quick response ( within a matter of a week or two ) then I will settle your invoice ( may have to be in a couple of stages – will discuss that if we need to ) and will make my own decision in regard to my client.
The invoice is to his firm.
What?! No, no and no! You want either the watch back or the money in your bank now, not once his dog has spoken to someone else's cat and certainly not 'in a week or two'! Totally unacceptable. Sorry to hear about this Dave, not a nice position to be out in.
Smacks of someone buying time, I'm afraid, Dave. When you factor in the opportunities for a fortnight's delay here, and a fortnight's delay there, he'll be calculating that he can hold you at bay for another couple of months before anything really bad starts to happen to him.
I'm concerned about the legal ramifications of doing it through his firm. Does that change things? Is he less liable personally? He might have D and O cover which can cover legal costs that way.
I just get the impression I'm being bearded toward a certain direction.
Can you be very firm and tell him that it is him that owes the money, not the 'client' . How he chases 'the client' is not your concern, he should settle the debt himself and then pursue 'the client' whenever. He says hes prepared to do that, so just do it now.
Is it his own firm or is he an employee? ( sorry if its been answered before )
Cheers..
Jase
At this point, with the possibility of legal action, all communication should be in written form preferably with proof of receipt. What was said in a phone call or face-to-face can be disputed or twisted in court.
Could well be trying to line you up as a creditor to his limited company that he's going to fold. Which I expect would put you way down the list of creditors and no redress to him.
I would keep this personal and proceed as Josh suggested get a notice of action out to him via special delivery ASAP.
Last edited by Captain Morgan; 25th June 2014 at 07:44. Reason: Auto correct
Invoice to his firm?
Unless I am missing part of the story, his firm has got nothing to do with this personal matter.
So. No. that would not be advice from his "brief" as it is either (illegal) wrongful trading in an insolvency context, as suggested above, or an attempt to defraud the revenue.
so I have to conclude he has not met with a solicitor at all and the story is just poppycock. He is, as you suspect, trying to mug you off.
I would proceed as advised earlier at full speed.
edit: on this evidence I must unfortunately conclude it looks like he is now deliberately setting up to screw you over. Act accordingly.
This
And this.
Good luck....
You can credit check his firm via duedill - if there are no shareholder funds to speak of then don't invoice the firm.
Hire "some people"...
Or, if like the letter I sent to my plumber threatening similar action, if it remains uncollected....it gets sent back to you, undelivered.
Me, well I was expecting to collect a surprise parcel I had drunkenly ordered when I arrived at the post office, not my own letter of threatening action 'returned to sender'.
There are other ways to delver said letter. It's not a big deal and silly games just put off the day of reckoning a small bit
I did go to the police today as the 7 days were up. I will also start legal proceedings against him. Kind of going for an 'all out' sort of vibe!
Here is the email I sent him
I write to you with reference to my previous email. Seven days have now elapsed and the matter has been passed on to the police.
I am not prepared to invoice your company as I dealt with you personally.
You had originally told me you were unwilling to pursue your client for the watch and / or payment but now you are asking for more time to do just that?
You took the watch from me with the express understanding that you would keep it in your safe and show your client within 14 days for a decision on purchase. This has clearly not been the case.
I shall be writing to you over the next couple of days with a Notice of Action, after which I shall begin legal proceedings against you to recover my losses. This will run concurrently with the criminal investigation now being undertaken by the police.
I am happy to cancel this action, along with the charges against you, assuming one of the following criteria is satisfied.
1) You pay the amount of £3250, (plus £80 for the IWC travel case the watch was supplied to you in), for the watch as originally agreed. I am happy to take either cash or a bank transfer. I shall issue you with a receipt for the payment and supply you with the box and paperwork for the watch upon cleared funds.
2) You return the watch to me in the same condition it was given to you. You will be required to recompense me for the difference between the agreed selling price of the watch and its present value . This amount will need to be agreed by a professional valuer, the cost of which shall be borne by you.
I feel desperately sad that it has come to this but frankly I've been nothing but patient with you. This has dragged on for seven months, all the while I've been out of pocket. You have consistently refused to give me the details of where the watch is being held, and made no attempt to reimburse me for my losses.
I only hope this can be resolved quickly and privately and without the need to drag your name through the mud, so to speak.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Dave
I'd like to thank everyone who has helped so far. I know its often said but it's a great community. Long may it continue :)
By the way, if anybody sees a cheap IWC being sold by a fat man near Tring, let me know ;)
Dave tring is near me mate will keep a look out at the local auction there buddy just incase
Thanks Andy but I suspect the horse has very much bolted!
His response;
I understand just how annoyed you must be. I didn't ask you to invoice my company but me care of my company. I am personably responsible for the debt - not my company - but I wanted the company's details to appear on it for when I send it on.
Please do this David as my intention remains, as it always has, for you to benefit from this and for me to do so too. It's not your responsibility to recoup the monies from my client but mine and that may well help me immeasurably in so doing
I will do my utmost to minimise any losses you may suffer and am doing my best to achieve that.
Dave I hope you do get somewere and at some point things take a up turn in sorting things out , just incase I do come across a fat bloke with the named watch on the wrist I am a trained first aider so I could remove his wrist and make the decision to reattach or not
I wouldn't send anything 'care of his company' - as others have pointed out seems to an attempt to muddy the waters. Why would an invoice 'care of the company' make a blind bit of difference to a client?
Wow.
Your letter was spot on, just proceed with the Notice of Action. He's clearly still playing silly buggers.
No criticism of you Dave, as I'm sure any of us might have done the same in the circumstances, but the key lesson for me from your unfortunate situation is this:
I won't be lending my three grand watch to some guy.
Of course, you can't go through life assuming everyone is out to rip you off, but thanks to your valuable thread I think many of us will now think twice before doing anything like this. You may know someone pretty well, but you don't know what they'll do with a small, portable, untraceable piece of jewellery worth a great deal of money.
In a similar situation I think I would give the person photos of the watch instead, and say that if his client is interested he can arrange to come and have a look at it in person. It's like if someone comes to look at your car for sale: if they test drive it, you go with them. You wouldn't let them just drive off with it. And I've sold cars for a lot less than your unfortunate watch is worth.
Here's hoping you get it back - or that at least your ex-friend finds himself in serious legal hot water!
Dave,
Having been in a not totally dissimilar situation many years ago, the main thing now is to carry through your threat without wavering or accommodating his spurious requests. He will try to procrastinate, slow things down, obfuscate and wriggle. Do not budge an inch from your clearly stated position or timeline.
This is 100% his problem - he is responsible for the debt to you, and he needs to pay it or return the watch. His relationship with his "client" is irrelevant, and not your problem. Make sure you remain completely focused on that.
Bottom line, based simply on this thread, is that I would be virtually certain he has sold it and received the money some months ago. He is trying to avoid paying you, and he will continue to avoid paying you unless he is forced to do so.
My sympathies. I learned a salutary lesson not to lend high value items or money to friends or family. Not a nice lesson to learn, but there are many people out there whose scruples fall far short of ours.
So clever my foot fell off.
What an idiot.
Ive lent watches to a friend before payment to see if he really wanted that watch.
Sorry you are in this situation.
I see that the action as now been taken, but I would suggest that you went and met with your so called "friend" and issued him with copy of the letter. I always think you will get a better idea of what has happened face to face with body language etc.
at this stage that would not be wise, the OP needs all evidence in writing.
Lets be honest the OP has known this guy for 15 years face2face and still handed over the watch so what is he going to learn from a f2f this time that he didn't in 15 years? it is clear to me by the little I have read of this guy, that he is conning the OP, all a f2f would achieve is maybe weakening the OP's stance or threats and worse from the conman, that now knows he has been found out.
A bit of an update,
I went to the police station to give a statement last Thursday. It wasn't dismissed out of hand so I'm hopeful they'll pursue it.
I wrote my Notice of Action letter earlier, does this read OK for those of you in the know? If so, I'll get it in the post tomorrow
Dear Mr XXXXXX 6th July 2014.
I write to you in reference to my IWC 3717-01 gentleman’s wrist watch. I had offered this watch for sale to you on 12th November 2013 and you had told me that one of your clients may be interested in purchasing it. We agreed that you would hold the watch for a period of approximately 14 days in order for your client to inspect the timepiece. I was told that the watch would be kept in your safe until such time that you were able to meet your client. You took the watch on 20th December 2013.
However, you then claim that you gave the watch to your client’s son who subsequently left the country with it in his possession. This was never agreed upon and I gave no permission for you to action this.
You have continually ignored repeated requests for either the watch to be returned or payment as agreed, (£3250). You also refuse to surrender details of your client so that I might contact them regarding the matter.
I therefore have no option other than to raise a case against you for the recovery of monies owed to me. This civil action shall run alongside the criminal investigation currently being undertaken by the police.
To avoid this civil action being raised, I shall give you a period of 14 days from the date of this letter
(20th July 2014) to either;
1) Pay the amount of £3250, (plus £80 for the IWC travel case the watch was supplied to you in), for the watch as originally agreed. I am happy to take either cash or a bank transfer. I shall issue you with a receipt for the payment and supply you with the box and paperwork for the watch upon cleared funds
2) Return the watch to me in the same condition it was given to you. You will be required to recompense me for the difference between the agreed selling price of the watch and its present value
. This amount will need to be set by a professional valuer, the cost of which shall be borne by you.
I feel desperately sad that it has come to this but frankly I've been nothing but patient with you. This has dragged on for seven months and all the while I've been out of pocket.
I only hope this can be resolved quickly and privately and without the need to drag your name through the mud, so to speak.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Dave
I'm no expert but a couple of points that may help...
I would title/start the letter outlining what it is, it looks more authoritative, and may get him to read it all, because as it stands it reads as a repeat of the letter I believe you have already sent him.
I would reword or exclude the part where you were wanting the 3rd parties details to contact them yourself,you are dealing with this guy not the 3rd party.
I would try and add that the police may want to speak with this 3rd party to see if they exist as if they don't it could be a case of fraud, but be careful how you word things as you do not want to come across as threatening.
You have already involved the police, you either need to make that clearer and remove the part where you will stop any action within so many days as the police may take this further, you may not have a say in it, he will be thinking what's the point in acting on your deadline now as you have already involved the police.
I would also remove the "drag name through mud" comment, maybe harmless, but it could be seen by some as a threat, you are outlining what action is and will be taken, no need to state anymore than that.
oh and I would be asking for this thread to be moved to the bear pit as it's a closed section of the forum,or start a new thread there.
Last edited by jegger; 6th July 2014 at 21:22.
Thankyou,
All good points. I'll have a rewrite.
Cheers
Better? It is similar to an email I sent him as I made most of the same points in it.
I write to you in reference to my IWC 3717-01 gentleman’s wrist watch. I had offered this watch for sale to you on 12th November 2013 and you had told me that one of your clients may be interested in purchasing it. We agreed that you would hold the watch for a period of approximately 14 days in order for your client to inspect the timepiece. I was told that the watch would be kept in your safe until such time that you were able to meet your client. You took the watch on 20th December 2013.
However, you then claim that you gave the watch to your client’s son who subsequently left the country with it in his possession. This was never agreed upon and I gave no permission for you to action this.
You have continually ignored repeated requests for either the watch to be returned or payment as agreed, (£3250).
I therefore have no option other than to raise a case against you for the recovery of monies owed to me.
To avoid this civil action being raised, I shall give you a period of 14 days from the date of this letter
(20th July 2014) to either;
1) Pay the amount of £3250, (plus £80 for the IWC travel case the watch was supplied to you in), for the watch as originally agreed. I am happy to take either cash or a bank transfer. I shall issue you with a receipt for the payment and supply you with the box and paperwork for the watch upon cleared funds
2) Return the watch to me in the same condition it was given to you. You will be required to recompense me for the difference between the agreed selling price of the watch and its present value
. This amount will need to be set by a professional valuer, the cost of which shall be borne by you.
I feel desperately sad that it has come to this but frankly I've been nothing but patient with you. This has dragged on for seven months and all the while I've been out of pocket.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Somewhere along the line I would indicate that the matter will be placed with a Debt Collection Agency, Their recovery costs and interest will of course be applied on a daily basis! Mention that these sort of actions can of course also destroy his credit standing, This may just push a little harder some these agencies do indeed take great lengths to recover, However keep it as a concealed threat in your letter for now,
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